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Does Dalglish have a point?
Topic Started: Sep 13 2011, 04:28 PM (999 Views)
FLOPP'D
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The King in the North
After the Stoke game on Saturday Dalglish had this to say: "Our first four league games have all had a contentious decision in them and every one of them has gone against us.

"We would like to be respectful towards referees. I think I have been respectful to referees, but more importantly than being respectful to referees in their campaign it's about having respect for my football club, Liverpool Football Club.

"If I feel they (Liverpool FC) are suffering in any shape of form then maybe I need to go down the same route as some other people go and see if we can get some benefit from that. I'll speak to the owners first and see what they say because the last thing I want is for my behaviour to infringe on the club's success in any way, shape or form."

Here is a video of some of the decisions Kenny is talking about - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xl2636_referring-mistakes-against-lfc_sport

And here is a website showing, in theory, what the league table last season would have looked like if referees got the major decisions correct - http://www.thesportscaster.net/news.htm#785857657

It may come as no surprise to you that the teams that benefitted most from dodgy refereeing last season were the two Manchester clubs, and Chelsea. 3 teams that are known to surround the referee and get right up in their faces. So does Dalglish have a point that the whole respect campaign is a load of nonsense when it seems like the teams who adhere to this compaign suffer, and the teams that actively go against it seem to benefit the most from dubious calls?
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John Henry April 2011
 
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Jimmymac™
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I always find it very subjective, what some people see as a contentious decision, others see in a different light
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SuarezWasNotRacist
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Who decides what the correct decision should have been andwhat constitutes as a "dodgy decision." Unless the answers on that link which i havent even bothered to open it's bullshit.
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Jimmymac™
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Watching the video its fairly obvious that there have been a few decisions already that should have gone our way that didnt, the outcome of those games might have been different, but then we will likely get some decisions go in our favour as the season goes on too, a lucky peno or get away with one that should have been.

Thats not to say i'm a believer in this "it even's itself out" thing, more that I do think you go through patches where you get the rub of the green and at other times it goes against you.
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The Derry Pele
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He seems to have a point, people always say Utd get big decisions and Fergie is an outspoken critic of certain refs so there could be a link in that.

The will always be decisions that go our way and dont, most of the time its just used to cover up a fairly shite preformance for the other 89 minutes
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talkingsense®
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Well who is to say that this table includes all the decisions as independently affected?

The year before last Utd were robbed home and particularly away by refereeing decisions against Chelsea, had even one of those games been correctly reffed so to speak Utd would have secured the title.

So each year different things affect different teams in different ways. They do tend to even themselves out to a degree but if the incident happens in a 6 pointer then the damage can be too extreme.

I haven't read the analysis but how have they worked out what would have happened? An offside goal wouldn't be a goal, we might all agree that, but does a penalty not given equal a goal not scored? I think 2/3rds of the penalties taken so far this season have been missed :o so how do they count that? Also you don't know what would have happened if the penalty hadn't been given.

As an example, Nani was brought down in the box on Saturday, Utd should have had a penalty but seconds later they scored and it didn't matter that the ref hadn't awarded it.

These things aren't as black and white as somebody doing a league like this would have you believe.

That said I would favour a 4th video referee and see them get more decisions right, including a yellow card for diving! :p
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Dotty
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Sep 13 2011, 04:28 PM
It may come as no surprise to you that the teams that benefitted most from dodgy refereeing last season were the two Manchester clubs, and Chelsea. 3 teams that are known to surround the referee and get right up in their faces. So does Dalglish have a point that the whole respect campaign is a load of nonsense when it seems like the teams who adhere to this compaign suffer, and the teams that actively go against it seem to benefit the most from dubious calls?
In a game that money dominates, respect takes a passenger seat. Technically there's nothing wrong with what they're doing, yeah it's annoying to watchbut it's sportsmanship. The end justifies the means and many people look back on the end rather than the means.

in many clubs in Italy, sportsmanship is part of a players youth development, Spain as well probably. Feigning injury and crowding the ref after a teammate makes a bad tackle in the hope he'll lose track of the situation are just a couple of things.

Look at Suarez for example, you're telling me that if more players joined him after a "poor" decision that the ref wouldn't take pause before making a decision?
Edited by Dotty, Sep 13 2011, 04:49 PM.
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talkingsense®
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The Derry Pele
Sep 13 2011, 04:45 PM
The will always be decisions that go our way and dont, most of the time its just used to cover up a fairly shite preformance for the other 89 minutes
That's so true, too!
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FLOPP'D
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Yeah obviously you need to take that table with a bucket load of salt, but it's a decent enough tool to show how big decisions affect each team. And it helps show that there seems to be a relationship between disrespect and getting decisions in your favour. But this isn't a thread to say x team should be here or there in the table, it's more for getting opinions on the respect campaign and how the FA can ask for it when it seems they award the opposite.
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Victor
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He has a point that mistakes are made but he is sailing close to a charge by suggesting refs are making decisions due to a lack of respect for Liverpool. Biggest mistake of the game wasnt made by the ref anyway, Kenny needs to look closer to home
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Stryke
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Agree with Jimmy. There is always going to be a random factor in decisions. Probablility means it won't even itself out over a season, it would take an infinite amount of time to even out. For Liverpool there was a string of games where your opponents had a player sent off for example in 08/09, that doesn't mean the referees were out to help them win the league.

Regarding United, if there was some sort of bias from referees, or they responded more favourably when put under pressure the statistics for red cards for and against and penalties would bear it out right? However last season in the league:

United received more red cards than most prem teams (3, 9th most)
United had an opponent sent off twice (only 2 teams, spurs and West Ham, had less opposition players sent off).
United conceded more penalties than they received. (6 to 5)

I'll compare to Liverpool last season simply because thats the team mentioned in the opening post:

Received 2 reds (joint 10th); had 3 opposition players sent off (joint 8th) and conceded less penalties than they were given (5 to 6).

So i could turn and say that Liverpool benefited more than most from major reffing decisions right? But of course it doesn't work like that because of so many other factors.

Because the link is about Arsenal getting screwed:

Arsenal had 6 reds (2nd) but had far more opponents sent off than anyone else (9, the next highest is Newcastle who had 5). They had a lot of penalties given (7, 5th) but also conceded the most (9, 1st), which combined gives them the 4th worst record overall.

So to summarise, if Arsenal were deliberately being forked over by referees then the penalty/disciplinary stats would show it more, if United were getting the rub of the green why are they benefiting less than most teams and if Liverpool were being screwed over why aren't they worse off than average in the major decisions lasts season?

As a disclaimer i haven't checked the reliability of the site i got the stats from but it seems pretty comprehensive and there is no obvious club bias i can see.

http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/FA_Premier_League_2010-2011/Stats/Penalties/

Edited by Stryke, Sep 13 2011, 05:05 PM.
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Victor
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Of course there is no bias, agenda or conspiracy. Mistakes happen, part of the game.
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The Derry Pele
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Victor
Sep 13 2011, 04:59 PM
He has a point that mistakes are made but he is sailing close to a charge by suggesting refs are making decisions due to a lack of respect for Liverpool. Biggest mistake of the game wasnt made by the ref anyway, Kenny needs to look closer to home
Biggest mistake of that game was somebody in Hr thinking Mark Clattenburg was capable of reffing a game of football and giving him a job
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The Derry Pele
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Stryke
Sep 13 2011, 05:03 PM


United received more red cards than most prem teams (3, 9th most)
United had an opponent sent off twice (only 2 teams, spurs and West Ham, had less opposition players sent off).
United conceded more penalties than they received. (6 to 5)

I dont think its stuff like this that makes people think there is a utd bias, i think its more along the lines of decisions not being given to other teams or players not being booked/frees not being given which of course the stats would not include
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Victor
Sep 13 2011, 04:59 PM
He has a point that mistakes are made but he is sailing close to a charge by suggesting refs are making decisions due to a lack of respect for Liverpool. Biggest mistake of the game wasnt made by the ref anyway, Kenny needs to look closer to home
Victor's right Paddy, you can't draw the conclusion that lack of respect means getting more decisions in your favour.

Do I think bigger teams get a slightly better run of the green, particularly at home? Yes, but honestly it's not that significant. Honestly I think it's the crowd more than the players that can influence it. Oh and BTW occasionally some refs seem deliberately anti the big team too.

You know back in the 70's & 80's everyone felt Liverpool were given favourable treatment indeed I remember one con=medy show doing a report on an imaginary game that had the referee sending two of the opponents off 20 minutes before the start of the game for not having bootlaces fastened yet and then awarding Liverpool their first goal whilst the teams were lining up in the tunnel and it being described as "It was no more than Liverpool deserved!"

Liverpool lost to Stoke, Carragher did enough to have a penalty awarded against him so I wouldn't quibble that and one of the shouts for a Liverpool penalty was correct too. The handball edge of the box incident should have been a penalty the other one wasn't.

But a penalty doesn't = goal. Stoke defended like Trojans and yes they had a bit of luck go their way, Liverpool were the better side, especially in the second half, but it wasn't an odd referee's decision that cost them. At the end of the day they needed to get a goal from their open play but didn't, football is like that sometimes and TBH it's a better game for the fact that the better team don't always win.

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