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Freedom of Speech
Topic Started: Mar 18 2012, 10:09 PM (2,485 Views)
redDevilMoe
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Ofcourse it's relevant Moe, if you make the initial comment that we're "fighting for innocent people's freedom". If it's collateral then clearly we're not.


Collateral in the minds of those with selfish motives. I should have been more clearer, but whether the liberation of a people is intended or not it will most likely be the outcome. Falling in line with the main ethos of the nation and its soldiers....to fight for freedom.

And your last point is very wrong. Everyone linked with the Iraq war has been almost ruined politically. Those that dont deliver on their promises usually dont get the chance to start another war. Just because new people are making the promises just highlights the naivety of the people.

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treble
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redDevilMoe
Mar 27 2012, 10:21 PM
Quote:
 
Ofcourse it's relevant Moe, if you make the initial comment that we're "fighting for innocent people's freedom". If it's collateral then clearly we're not.


Collateral in the minds of those with selfish motives. I should have been more clearer, but whether the liberation of a people is intended or not it will most likely be the outcome. Falling in line with the main ethos of the nation and its soldiers....to fight for freedom.

And your last point is very wrong. Everyone linked with the Iraq war has been almost ruined politically. Those that dont deliver on their promises usually dont get the chance to start another war. Just because new people are making the promises just highlights the naivety of the people.

Whatever the outcome, the orginal point was that we don't go in with the primary aim of fighting for freedom or liberation. If it happens to be collateral in the minds of those with selfish motives, then it's hardly a credible argument. Not only this, but the liberation of people isn't always necessary through war so even if it does happen to be a collateral outcome, is it worth the rest of the death and destruction caused. And who elected us judge jury and executioner anyway.

I can't agree with that. Blair and new labour were re-elected in 2005, when they were being villified in the press and ridiculed for the Weapons of Mass Destruction bollox by every political satirist. George W Bush was re-elected in exactly the same way in 2004. So I don't see how any were ruined politically. Your point about naivity is exactly what I was saying earlier, people are naive - or just indifferent, and the same s**t will happen over and over again bcos somehow the spin seems plausible this time, when the reality is, it's just as ridiculous as the previous time. Expect to hear th ratcheting up of the same arguments against Iran as we had against Iraq and it's pretty clear the doubters will be well outnumbered again.
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redDevilMoe
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Whatever the outcome, the orginal point was that we don't go in with the primary aim of fighting for freedom or liberation. If it happens to be collateral in the minds of those with selfish motives, then it's hardly a credible argument. Not only this, but the liberation of people isn't always necessary through war so even if it does happen to be a collateral outcome, is it worth the rest of the death and destruction caused. And who elected us judge jury and executioner anyway.


The original point was that we fight for freedom. It may not be the REAL aim but its peddled as the primary aim that justifies what is imo murder. Because its used as a justification, usually the sole justification, the whole success or failure of the war is judged by it. So in some backwards way we fight for freedom.

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I can't agree with that. Blair and new labour were re-elected in 2005, when they were being villified in the press and ridiculed for the Weapons of Mass Destruction bollox by every political satirist. George W Bush was re-elected in exactly the same way in 2004. So I don't see how any were ruined politically. Your point about naivity is exactly what I was saying earlier, people are naive - or just indifferent, and the same s**t will happen over and over again bcos somehow the spin seems plausible this time, when the reality is, it's just as ridiculous as the previous time. Expect to hear th ratcheting up of the same arguments against Iran as we had against Iraq and it's pretty clear the doubters will be well outnumbered again.


Bush was re-elected because americans were shitting themselves, and bush despite being portrayed as an idiot he was the idiot that wont hesitate to destroy countries to keep them safe. Kerry couldnt compete with that. Im not as savvy on the Blair scenario but how many enquires and hearings has he been subjected to. Also the Iraq war was pretty fresh in 2005 so even though people didnt want war the public didnt completely turn on Blair and Bush, politically anyway. But since things went from bad to worse there image has been tarnished, if either could stand for election today Im pretty sure both would be thrashed.

But that just proves my point further. If we promise to find WMDs or remove a dictator we will hold those that say it to task ensuring that these promises become the top priority of any conflict we engage in.
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